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Interview: Clive Chin

Interview: Clive Chin

Interview: Clive Chin

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"I love this for the music and not so much for the money."

Clive Chin is the eldest son of Vincent Chin, founder of the record labels Randy's and VP. Today VP is the world's biggest specialist reggae and dancehall label and this year Randy's is 50 years old. Angus Taylor met Clive at Dub Vendor in London when he was over for the label's 50th birthday celebrations to discuss Randy's history productions and its incredible musical legacy.

Many companies go under in their first year. How does it feel being part of such a successful venture for 50 years?

Well I’m very proud and very happy to know that we have come this far. We’re in the 2008 going on into 2009 and I’m very proud – not only for my self but for the rest of my siblings and family. We started out in 1958 and it was – yes – it was a struggle – but we endeavoured. We are one of the class of family that believe in keeping a steady growth. Ever heard of “The Shopkeepers”? The Shopkeepers are the Chinese that came to the island in the turn of the century – from the end of the Eighteenth century to the beginning of the Nineteenth century. They were known as The Shopkeepers – they would open up their bakery shops or their little convenience shops which sells all different kind of produce like saltfish, flour, rice and we sell it by the pound - or a half pound if you can’t pay for a pound. So we provide all of that service for the Jamaicans. A poor class of people. But I’m talking in my sense now – with my family – we weren’t into the food business. We were more into the record business. And my father that started and got interested in the music business during the work that he was doing for Isaac Issa which was a Syrian Jamaican, again he came from Syria with his family and so forth and built a generation of families down there. But my dad worked with his company back in the mid 50s – started working with Issa around ’55 ’54 – and his duties there was to change his jukeboxes. Change the records out of the jukeboxes, supply fresh records, and service. You also had to make sure it takes the coins out, you had to check the coins to give the owner of the bar his percentage because they are using their current to provide the services of the music. And when you put a jukebox into that person’s business you have to give them an incentive. That was his duties for Isaac Issa. Until he had all these records that he would change out of the jukeboxes stored away into his premises where we were living out in East Kingston. And it became so abundantly packed with all those records that someone suggested to him that he should sell them rather than keep them – because he was wondering how all these records keep storing up higher and higher and higher!

It’s a common problem!

So the idea came about of opening a record store around ‘58. It started from there. It was a very tiny record store down on East Street and Tower Street – downtown Kingston. It was not busy around that end of the city at the time. It was more of a commercial area. A lot of commercial businesses were down that end. I remember as a boy it was mostly office buildings, banks, commercial banks. I know there was a sort of museum next door to the business place, right across the street on Tower Street. So it wasn’t that much of a heavy business for him but he was still working with this [the jukebox business] at the same time. His wife Patricia was running the store for him, and he had to look around to find a more central location. He found that in 1960 when he acquired a small section of an ice cream parlour. He had to rent because he couldn’t afford to buy any business place because he just started. And this was at 17 North Parade, right across the street from the park – Victoria Park it was called then – it’s now changed. This was very central for him. People could hear the music knowing that there’s a record store and come right in. We had a little speaker box outside the store. It wasn’t played that loud because you couldn’t really blast music in those times unless you were a sound system. So that would draw in the crowds and people would come and word got out that’s where we are - because we had customers from the early store – and from there everything propelled. He was able to buy the premises in ’64-’65. He bought 17 North Parade and then built the studio upstairs.

And why did he become interested in the recording business?

Because there was a need for it. There weren’t that many record producers down there at the time. You probably had a handful. And we were all listening, we were all gravitating towards the American music – the blues and the jazz coming from the South – from Nashville. And that’s how he actually got the name Randy’s. He listened to this popular radio station that was being sponsored by the record store called Randy’s. And he loved that name and he decided to acquire the name. His friends and his business partners them call him Randy. Now there was really a need for him to get involved because – I tell you – he had many friends from out of Wareika Hill because he was a man that go up to the hills. And he met quite a lot of the musicians. He met Rico up there, and he met Tommy McCook and Lloyd Nibbs… Don Drummond himself. So there was an interest there - because he was a man of vision - he saw that there was a need for local music to be produced. Although he was one of the only man that didn’t go into the sound system business, like all those other guys like Sir Coxsone Dodd and Duke Reid and Buster and Tubbys to name just a few.

Why didn’t he do it?

Because it was a lot of work. I mean when you are bombarded with work - changing jukeboxes and that. Because at the time he was producing records he was still physically involved with the jukeboxes. He bought a few from Issa and had started his own thing. It was not an easy job to go out on the road in the afternoons. I know for a fact that as one of his own – I am the first child – he didn’t really have much time for us as a father. It was probably only on a Sunday that he would be able to take us out to the beach or take us to a movie or take us to buy ice cream or something like that. He was always busy – always from morning til night – jukebox, records, to the studio. Because he didn’t have his own studio at the time when he started. He had to rent Federals or he had to rent RJR because that’s where he did a few of his early recordings too. Radio Fusion. So there was a need for him to get involved and he took that opportunity and he got some of the best recordings out of these legendary musicians and artists of his time.

Your father recorded a very young Alton Ellis. Do you have any early memories of him?

Yes yes. Alton was a very close ally to him. A very close friend. He was also a co worker because Alton used to work at Issa as well in the mid 50s. But it wasn’t really in jukebox - it was a different department. Probably in the engineering or mechanical I don’t know. I didn’t really ask Alton what kind of work he was doing there but he did acknowledge that both him and my father was working there. That was very odd because Alton did some of his early recordings – not ska or reggae but blues like what you call bluebeat – a song by the name of Let Me Dream, My Love Divine. Him and Eddie Parkins as a duet just like how they did Muriel for Studio 1. But then it went on, and he did some solo recordings, some massive tunes - because Mouth A Massy was a BIG TUNE around ’63 – ’64. Then he did Ska Beat and he also did another duet with John [Holt] called Rumbumpers – another big tune. But they were very very close, you know? Even when Alton came back from England in the early 70s. That’s when I personally had the opportunity to meet him now. Was in 1973. Because I did a song with him – it was a cover song by the Cornelius Brothers called Too Late To Turn Back Now – and me and him had a good time working on that track. We build up a good relationship. Because I knew his sister before personally meeting and working with him. I recorded Hortense on a track called Woman Of The Ghetto – a great track. But good memories of Alton. You know that song [Too Late] was giving a little bit of a problem recording it? We had five musicians on the set and the guitarist was trying to feel out the song because it had a lot of different chords in it. A young guy. And Alton liked to work with professionals. We didn’t have like a Lynn Tait on the session or a Ranglin – one of them guys that could work out the chords then real quick. So Alton was getting a little in a temper with this guy and I call Alton to one side and I said “listen, the worst thing you could ever do is pressure one of these musicians, they’re not going to give you the best”. So we had to take him off of what he was doing and brought in Skully – a percussionist who plays bongo drums and stuff right? – and let him fill the space of the guitarist. And that’s why when you hear the final mix of the tune, it sounds so crisp. You hear that (MAKES SCRATCHING NOISE). But it wasn’t a rhythm guitar – it was a cheese grater!

Really?

Yeah! A cheese grater we brought in! Yeah man. And I want tell you when Alton saw I did that that he looked to me and said, “Bwoy… young Chin… You bad! Who could ever thought of that??” Was unheard of. Ultimately unheard of up to this day. And a lot of people sometime ask, “how you get that sound?” and me just laugh it off and say it’s a special mix… (LAUGHS)

How did you feel when you heard of his passing?

Well… I was… I was caught up. I was sad. Before the news got to me about Alton I had spoken to him previously a number of months back – it might have been as far back as June. I heard of his illness and I called him up and I said “wh’appen Alton?” and he said “not much Clivey” – he call me Clivey – and he said the devil is knocking on his back door and I said “Bwoy, You can’t let him in you know? You have to put on some padlock and some braces and you can’t let that devil in”. And I said to him I’ll pray for him you know? And just hope everything work out. But the message that he wanted me to take back to New York was to let the family know that he wasn’t well and whatever they could contribute to doctors, medication… and I brought it back and they opened up to it. Because if the old man was alive… there wouldn’t even have to be a question… of what he would contribute… because them going way back… from in the 50s… it really hit me you know? A good guy… really like him you know? (BECOMES EMOTIONAL)

Shall we take a break? Do you need a minute?

No no. I’m good. It’s just that when I talk about somebody… that I really know personally… (PAUSES FOR A WHILE)

And I’ll tell you too – that about a month before we lost Johnny Moore – Dizzy Johnny. Another good friend of the old man too. Talked to him last year and did a nice interview for the DVD. Because I couldn’t get any more of the Skatalites. He was the only one I could get. Because as I got down Jah Jerry died. I had Jah Jerry on the list and when I got there he passed. And then the only other two I could have brought in would be Lester Sterling and Nibbs. Because they are still active with the band.

You said your father was very busy. Was spending time with him how you became involved in your parents business?

Partly. But why I got really involved is because I spent a lot of time after school working down there. Because they needed help. A lot of help. And my school wasn’t far from the place of business – I’m taking about North Street. I went to Kingston College there for five years. Before that I was at another school called Choir School. And when you get in your teens you can’t really go home and waste time because my family was really strict. They didn’t really allow too much free time. It was either the store or the house. We couldn’t really go to like parks and partying out and like that. I mean I got to party after I got in my teens – late teens. But the early teens you really have to dedicate a lot of time to the family. And the business being as it was, that’s where I got really involved. I used to check records. Check 45s. I mean physically check them. Nowadays you don’t check them like that. I mean you don’t have records anymore. You have cds and mp3s and stuff like that.

Did you check they weren’t scratched or off centre?

No no – just to check that the quantity was correct. They used to come 25 to a box. A lot of records too. I’m not just talking a little bit because records really used to sell in those days. I remember one Christmas I must have checked around five thousand Cherry Oh Babys! The Eric Donaldson track – BIG TUNE. Massive tune. I don’t think he could ever make another tune like that. He did some good tunes after that but he didn’t make a massive comeback. And it was not only him – quite a lot of artists them come with a one tune and you don’t really hear from them again. But that was my duty there and that was how I got motivated into the business. Getting involved. If I were to answer you the question correctly that you asked me it was because my father was busy with other things, yes. I had to step in and take up some of the slack.

You briefly became a sound man. Tell me about that.

Yes. For only a little time. But I enjoyed that too.

Why did you stop?

I didn’t like the element it brought. I got scared at one of my dances. I told myself if this is their behaviour I don’t think I can do it. A man ride him motorcycle right into the dancehall and hit over people hitting them chairs and stuff. I don’t know if they did it to sabotage the dance or what but it was really out of order. When you have a dance in those times you have to have your posse who watch that somebody don’t thief your speakerbox or thief your record and stuff. It was nice but you have to have a strong sensibility. If a man a joke you have to give him two ras lick and just fling him out and ting. And me kind of too timid for that kind of thing. Not saying I was a wimp but I couldn’t really go argue argue with a man. If that was the case than I would really have to be a ruffian. But it was nice. A couple of parties I did it was nice. And I used to go out and go to sound system dance. I used to go around with Arrows and with Twelve Tribe Sound System. It’s just that later on in the 70s it became too… it depended on where you played to. Because you can’t play like in certain areas and you have to be very careful. You have gunman coming there and just hold you up and take every damn thing. And the police them do it too. So you have badman, good man, both of them, same kind of thing. And you have to pay off people for protection so I couldn’t bother with it.

How did you decide to become a producer?

That came naturally. It came because I was working part time at the studio. I would be an apprentice where I set up the mics and set up the plugs. Each plug that brought in the microphone had a number and you had to make sure you were using the right cords, the right set up, when the engineers say check this check that it have to be correct. You can’t plug in something that you were supposed to plug in wrong or you might blow something or mess up something. You have to know what you’re doing. So by doing so, the interest to go behind the board and check and levels and check tapes became an everyday practice until I started to master it. And that was the analogue. Now you ask me anything about digital and you have to go ask my son.

How did you come to work with Errol Thompson? You were at school with him weren’t you?

Yes. That’s the time I went to Choir School. I spent a year at this school. He was in a higher grade than me because he was around two years older. But that’s where I met him first, and when I meet him again the next time was when he came with someone to fix the organ at the studio. When he left Choir School, Errol was involved in sound system you know? His uncle he had a sounds system called El Gong out by Harbour View and Errol’s work was to help his uncle do the wiring. He was very good at wiring and plugging in stuff. He wasn’t a deejay or he wasn’t a selector, but with wires, connectors and plugs – that was his work. So he got a job at Studio 1 - around ’68 I believe – ’68 or ’69. He was working an apprenticeship under Sylvan Morris and from what I hear – and this a true story – is that Bunny Lee did a recording session up there and did some voicing up there and the engineer that was to take the session I guess wasn’t there or didn’t come. So Errol ended up taking the session and the song was called… big tune with Max Romeo… was in the charts over here… but it couldn’t get played on the radio because it was…

Wet Dream?

Wet Dreams! That’s it! That’s the tune. Errol took the voice on Wet Dreams. And I guess when a producer like working with you they tend to follow you, anywhere you go. Whether you out there on the field or into another building or whatever. And Errol got the job at Randy’s right after Bill Garnett left for the states - because Bill was the first engineer - and my father hired him and stuff. And that’s where the connection became tight. Because when I met him at the school, being as him an older boy, he didn’t really pay me no mind. The connection was made at Randy’s. A nice guy too. Really nice guy. Very quiet. Was a girl’s man. Loved girls. Loved women.

The key ingredients to the Randy’s sound back then were crisp guitars and heavy bass. How did this sound come to be fashioned?

Well it had to come about because in early recordings you couldn’t hear anything crisp on it because you must remember it was just one mic would take some three or four instruments. So you couldn’t really get that crisp sound much. When you have four tracks to play with – as opposed to two tracks – you have certain leverage. So what we used to do is put the bass and drum on one track, the rhythm – which would comprise of the organ the piano and the rhythm guitar and probably the lead guitar as well – and then you have an extra track to put on the horns or percussion. Or you might use two of them for voicing – so you’d have lead on one and then the harmony on the other. So there was a leverage. But – coming back to the question you first asked about the crispness – you have to have clarity in your music. You can’t make it sound dull. If you make it sound dull you wouldn’t have that timeless music that you’re hearing today. Because every time you play back one of them old songs it sounds like it recorded yesterday. So we experimented to get it and the reason why we could get that sound is because we had the facility. We didn’t have to pay for studio time. So that played to our advantage. Whereas some man who book the studio and run for an hour – they had better make sure they get something good before they come out! (LAUGHS).

You mean like Bunny Lee?

Yeah! Bunny run go in! You know Bunny never used to like listen back to him music while him work? I’m telling you from experience. This is not secondary thing me a tell you. Because I took some of him session. Bunny don’t want to hear him tune after them record. When him want to hear it is when the session finish. Then he’d say play back the tape. Then him know he don’t have to pay for that playback time! You think I don’t know Bunny? (LAUGHS) Then he might vex if him hear that! (LAUGHS) Or he might just laugh! Him get him Order you know? The Order Of Distinction.

One of the most memorable of your and ET’s dubs is the version to Lloyd Parks Ordinary Man. Can you tell us about how the idea for the comic voices and dub lesson came about?

Oh that cut – because there is many cuts of Ordinary Man – well again, just playing around with the rhythm you know? We liked to experiment. It wasn’t anything that was logically planned to do. We just run the tape, come up with an idea. The idea about “leave the studio man” was a thing that was said on a everyday basis down there! Because you used to have guys that would come upstairs along with the musicians and the artists and pretend that they are part of the whole thing. They just wanted to LOOK! They wanted to just be there to see what’s happening and things and smoke them spliff and drink them beer from not doing it downstairs. So we catch them and say “leave the studio now!” “You know you just have fi leave the studio!” “Come out man!” – something like that. But not too brute force like you’re going beat them up or anything. So that idea, we just implemented it on to the track, and we had Bingy Bunny there and I think General Echo was there too, myself, Errol, and two of my siblings was inside there too. My sister and one of my brothers. And they were the little voices you hear saying (PUTS ON HIGH VOICE) “You know my father say you have fi leave the studio!” Yeah, you know, playing around. Sometime when you do things like that and you do it professional it come out nice. Because me and Errol never would have dreamed that would become a novelty. We just do it as fun. Nothing planned, nothing we sit down or write out – it just worked.

You were at also school with Augustus Pablo. What was he like as a child?

Yes. I know him as a boy. He was quiet. He was not a guy that would come up to you and look for argument. Very laid back. My memories of Pablo is that he was always intrigued with instruments. He loved playing the keyboard because – from what I understood – someone in the family taught him to play the piano. Don’t know if it was his mother or if it was him Auntie or who but someone kind of like gave him lessons and from there he developed the skill. Rather than being in class and doing his schoolwork he would be in the chapel playing the organ or playing the keyboard. One time them catch him and almost give him a detention for that you know? Because he wasn’t supposed to be playing an instrument during school hours. But we became closer friends when we went to the studio. He lived up in Havendale and was a uptown boy and I was a downtown boy! So I didn’t really fancy having uptown friends! Not to say I didn’t like him – he was a nice chap and everything – but we got more tighter at Randy’s. He was actually one of out in house musicians too. Meaning that he would be there on a daily basis after he left school. So when I commissioned him to do Java, I gave him the track to go and study and he came back with a line and stuff. He just brought the wind instrument [Melodica] with him. It wasn’t something he had all the time. But he had the learnings, the theories of playing keyboard, he know the notes and everything, and he could do it the same way with the wind instrument because all you had to do is just blow wind into it and just… you know. It had less keys but it had your minor keys and so on. I liked the instrument because obviously it had a different sound and I’m always open for new ideas. You must know that there was a change from the 60s – we are talking early 70s now – we’re going into a lot of changes. We had war going on in Vietnam, we had the rising up of the Black Panthers and all these kind of things. So we just had to have a different sound altogether. Kind of eliminate the sixties horns and organs and so forth. So we just come with a different sound.

Java has been versioned so many times – when you first heard it did you think it would as big as it was?

Not really. I knew it was a massive tune for its time. All the musicians that played on it, they all said to me, “Clive, a boom tune you have you know?”. And when we say BOOM we mean a hit. A BIG TUNE. Because when the track was recorded initially it was supposed to be a love song - it had lyrics to it – but my friend couldn’t sing it. He couldn’t handle it. And everyone advised me saying “don’t put down that rhythm – don’t put it down”. Because we used to record sometimes and if we no like the tune we just erase at the end. Crazy thing to say but yes it happened. But yes I felt it would be a number one – I can feel tunes – and my stepmother felt it. She used to jump to it so I say YES. For she was the one that actually used to get a green light for all the songs because we’d test them downstairs on a Sunday on the turntable. As for where it is today – as a song that other people have been re-recording and voicing? No. I’d never have dreamt that it would be that popular, twenty, thirty years… what was it ’72?

36 years.

Yeah 36. It’s a long time. I was only – what – 18 when I did that song.

Who was the greatest artist you worked with?

That’s a big one. I mean I worked with some of the most elite musicians and artists down there. Kind of hard… But if I was to really say – truly – I would say Alton. I really had fun working with him. Although it was just one massive tune I did with him, if I was able to turn back the hands of time, he would have been my number one artist because he wasn’t a hard person to work with. He was very good at his voice hearing. If him know something wrong he would say “no – take that back over”. He wouldn’t let you be the judge of it, he would just stop it and ask to take it over. Although I’ve worked with Dennis too. He was nice, very nice. Very easy. You didn’t have problems working with those – those were the best ones. I’ve worked with some real headache ones. But once you find the good ones to work with you try to stick with it.

You also recorded one of the great female singers Olive Grant [AKA Senya or Ta Teasha Love]

Oh yes Olive!

What was she like to work with?

Again she wasn’t bad. She listened because obviously she was young – a very young girl – she must have been about 16 at the time. You just had to tell her exactly where she has to come in and where to go. She didn’t really have that professionalism at the time when I recorded her. It was actually her first recording – Oh Jah Come. And we went on to do a couple of others, the Children Of The Ghetto, and then, in the late 70s to 80s I recorded Roots Man. But that was a problem because we had a lot of interruptions on that session. That session took me a whole day. I spent a lot of time on it. You know Carlie [Barrett] was getting up and acting – you know – I think he was starting to have problems around then. And then interference with people going in and out of the control room – it was distracting. So that session was one of my – I wouldn’t say disappointing – it was very tedious.

The results were good though. All three tunes.

Oh yeah!

Tell us about moving to New York.

Well there were two reasons. One was that we were seeking to have another base outside of Jamaica. And two, it was a very tense political time in the late 70s. Around ‘76, ’77. The second term of Michael Manley’s socialist government. The heat, the whole atmosphere was a little uneasy. And rather than sit through that my father decided he would rather have a base set up just in case we would have to pull up everything one time. He was really hoping his other siblings would help pull him through in getting that done. But obviously there was a little bits of family problems here and there and he had to pretty much do it on his own. So I was summoned to come up in the spring of ’77 to help get the business off - to get the base we had in mind at the time off there. And I did that and then spent a good few months. I had my family in Jamaica and it was kind of uneasy for me to leave my young family down there while spending a massive amount of time in New York. But it all paid off. It all paid off.

How did you decide to start your reissue subsidiary 17 North Parade?

The whole idea behind that label is to have its own identity. Having it being a VP entity and everyone knowing that the VP label was all branded under the current dancehall obviously it wouldn’t fit in and it would be confusing to the masses. I came up with the idea for the 17 North Parade to be a vintage label and to keep that separate but under the VP distribution set-up. That’s why 17 North Parade was thought up and brought into the picture. People can identify it more and it feels better that way because 17 North Parade was where all the vintage music started.

You now have the back catalogue of Joe Gibbs. How did this come to pass?

It had been in negotiation from – I would say – over five years now. It’s not something that has happened over night. It was before Errol passed over too. It was great interest for the label because the older producers, there was very few of them still hanging on. I can count them on my five fingers. All the others, whether they are still alive presently or they have passed on – and the ones that pass on their family have no interest in it so it just becomes in domain and everybody that wants a piece of it they just go “here”. I’m talking about Duke Reid Treasure Isle, I’m talking like Beverley’s, I’m talking like Gayfeet – not Tip Top but the other one – the husband’s label I mean. If the early producers didn’t have children that would take up the flagship and carry it on – like Coxsone when he passed away his daughter didn’t jump in and say “I’m going to steer the ship” – then obviously who is going to run the label? The wife can’t keep running it - she’s on her retirement – so I guess the need to bring in the labels like you just mentioned was of interest. It’s a very good catalogue and so is Channel One and others.

What would you say – if you could reduce it down to one thing - is the secret of your success?

To one? Just the one? I’ll try… it’s just seeing how my father did what he did from his early age. Because he didn’t come from a rich family – nor did he come from a middle class family – the family was poor. His father was an immigrant from China – speaking very little English – and his mother worked for a tailors and did a lot of sewing and that for a living. And to bring up six children… it was a rough time back in those days in the 30s and 40s. And to see how my father persevere and persevere ‘til it reached a peak - he couldn’t really keep persevering because he died very young at 65. But it seemed really like he persevered and struggled through all that he went through in life as a young man coming up so it would feel like a personal failure if I had not carried on that legacy. I want to see myself even doing more than what he did you know? And that is one of the reasons why I try to surround myself with people - within the music industry and outside - to encourage it and nurture it. That’s why I was one of the only family members that would come out of the business entity of it to entertain it. Because I love this for the music and not so much for the money. I love money still because we have to have money to survive. But when you see me leave and travel thousands of miles to be present for that occasion on Friday night [Randy’s 50th Birthday Party at Brixton Town Hall] it’s because I would have disappointed so many of my fans and so many of my friends, you understand me? Some of them are standing up right here. I couldn’t really afford that. So I put money aside and say “me have to be here even if I have to get on George Bush plane to come over and get for him red carpet treatment to come in”. It was seeing what my dad started and seeing how he endeavoured and how he endured. He had a vision to where this business is today. I want to see that continue for the generation coming up. And I start seeing it already for one of my children – the eldest one – I see that with him name. That’s why he has a lot of respect for me you know?

What is the future for Randy’s and VP? Where do you see it in another 50 years?

I see them – and I want them – to recognise the basics too. And to remember where we really came from. To hold it within the family and to nourish it the way I nourished it so the ones that are coming on board now will nurture it. We have to keep focussed and keep trying to steer it the right way. Not get all nervous when we see the stock market fall down or get all panicky when something happens within the business. We have changed with the times. I have seen where we started selling vinyl, to we started selling four track tapes. That is even probably before your time – the ones you used to stick inside a car. From that to cassette, from cassette to cd, from cd to mp3s to these other little devices, ringtones, iPod, whatever. We are all moving on into the 21st Century but if they understand the basics how I do then it will always move higher. I can’t see it going in reverse! (BIG LAUGH) The whole purpose of it was to go forward, not to go backward. Forward ever, backward never!

Forward the bass.

Forward the bass! I! Yeah man.

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