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Interview: Enos McLeod (Part 2)

Interview: Enos McLeod (Part 2)

Interview: Enos McLeod (Part 2)

By on - Photos by Robbie Golec - Comment

"I am the most unfortunate man in the music business" 


Read part 1 of this interview.

In Part 2 of our exclusive interview with Enos Mcleod, he tells the stories behind his classic 70s recordings, settling in England in the 80s and why, despite, everything, he still loves music…

Enos McLeod

You took No Jestering to London – what happened there?

 Yeah I left Jamaica in ’75. I left Jamaica again in ’86.

So you left Jamaica in ’75?

Yeah with Jestering. I came to Pepe Judah and his brother. Hubert Campbell. That was Ital records. That's when they got Jestering with Shorty the President. And that's when they got my tape for Augustus Pablo Thriller. And this guy called Dennis Harris he put out the Ronnie Davis called Beautiful Jamaica. That was my album again.

I came out of tribulation

How long were you in London for?

Quite a while! It was no place to take a tour! After what they did to me! (Laughter) I went back to Jamaica in January. I came back in September and came back in January. Twice I came up and went back. Then I went back in January ’76. And then that was pure gunshot in Jamaica. That was the height of the politics. That is when I went to Joe Gibbs. In ’76

Tell me a bit about Joe Gibbs. Didn't you work as a doorman for him?

(Laughter) I couldn't be a doorman. Me a Badman! (Laughter) I punched Joe Gibbs face and pushed Errol Thompson. But it wasn't no doorman. I came out of tribulation. You reach Jamaica and you’re ambitious, you love the game, and you know your heart. So you go there first instead of going back down to Idlers Rest, which was Chancery Lane, North Parade. So I went up to Joe Gibbs studio and told Errol Thompson I had some tunes I would like to do. (Sings) "I know I'm not blind so I've made up my mind". I did that for him and they liked it.

I said "ET, things are bad. You know the kids them have to go to school and thing". He said "Rehearse the artists them. Do auditions with the artists them". Because they knew my ability. He had a crowd coming in at that time. They knew I was rough, I could defend myself. So he said "Keep the crowd off of here. Hold that gate so no heap of crowd come in". So it's better that you say I was a gate man. (Laughter) I had to hold off the crowd and get my envelope at week time. So I didn't mind. The kids had to go to school. This was 1976.

Is there any truth to the story that you gave Prince far I his name? He worked for Gibbs as well?

Is there any truth? That's a fact. What really happened was, me and the Gladiators were good friends. Especially the leader.


Me and him were good friends. What happened was they were suffering. Nothing was going on for them. But I had money so I said "Listen, Albert, you have your musicians, you have your band. I have the money so I have the studio. I am going to book the studio so you and your band come. I am going to take about five songs and leave you in the studio for the rest of the studio time. This is a good deal." This was at Channel One. So I did some tracks, licked over some of Mr Dodd’s tracks like Foggy Road which he did with Burning Spear. They did some good work so Albert got the studio time, I got my rhythms so I was gone and I left.

I was going to voice them so I said "Come in” to Prince Far I. Because he had a rough voice. When I voiced him doing the song I said "Listen now, I don't have this upon track already. This is on tape. So you are no more Michael Williams". He said (puts on deep Prince Far I voice) "NO!" "You are a prince for I. So you are Prince Far I." He said "Me no like that!" I said "It is either or either". But because he loved to go for his vial. He love to walk with a vial in his back pocket. It had something which could burn your eye and he would throw it upon you like that. In a flash! That's how he would fight. (Laughter) So you had to be ready for him!

I took Trinity off the street and put him behind the mic

He said "No! Michael Williams!" I said "No! Prince Far I or no song will go!" He said "Alright then". But I knew that the song would hit for a long time. "Let Jah arise and all his enemies be scattered". I knew that song would sell. That song is still selling. It can't stop selling. That gave him his name. That made him. You couldn’t tell a man he wasn’t Prince Far I after that. He'd say "Boy, you give me the name you know".

Even Trinity! I took Trinity off the street and put him behind the mic. I was the first man to break him. I am the first man who took him and carried him behind the mic. I said "Come and do this". His brother again, Clint Eastwood, I was the first man to break him out. With a thing called Whip Them Jah Jah. That was my song again.

Let's talk more about your singing career. Specifically the tune By The Look. Because that has got very harsh reality lyrics compared to the earlier Dennis Brown cut Cheater. The Dennis Brown one seems like a humorous thing about someone stealing his pants but you're talking about a woman who has been beaten up, yet you won't take a back.

(Bumps fist) Touch me man! Oh my word! You are the first man. You are good Angus. Trust me, you are the first person to come with it the right way. Dennis Brown’s song has nothing to do with this song. Because I had to tell Junior Delgado. I had to say "Sit down and move and go away from there Jux - you are an idiot".

Dennis Brown and this song are two completely different songs. Dennis Brown sang about someone thieving clothes off the line and how they are a cheater and this kind of thing. This song, By The Look is talking about the heart. Talking about a guy who loves a girl and the girl goes and deals with another guy and the guy beats her up. This song is coming from American R&B. The song that said (sings) "Don't roll those bloodshot eyes at me. I can tell you been out on a spree. You said you were crying, but I know that you are lying. Don't roll those bloodshot eyes at me." That is the song I went around.

Dennis Brown’s Cheater has nothing to do with my song

The woman who this song was written about - everybody knew her. Called Mamsy. That was the love of my life. Everybody knew that. Mamsy. That is me and Inner Circle who did that. We did Jericho that day. We did it at Joe Gibbs studio. Jericho, By The Look In Your Eyes, and one called Hijacking. With the Fat Boys. With Touter upon the keyboards. Mikey Boo upon the drums. My schoolmate - oh man.

Was that the cut with the Mighty Diamonds?

No, that's a different version. This version was for the album called By The Look In Your Eyes. But the raw one was for the 45. Hawkeye was the next thief too. Not so nice person as well because he took my song and put it out. By The Look In Your Eyes. And he put I Am Just A Man on the flipside.

I have that record.

 I didn't give it. He took my thing and put it out because he used to buy exports, come to Jamaica and buy pre-release for his shop. He took it and put it out and sent 700 Jamaican dollars with Gussie Clarke and gave me. All this time I didn't know that this song was such a big song. In England or nowhere at all. I didn't know it was so big. It was first released in New York. New York was the first place where I gave a guy to release it.

By The Look In Your Eyes came out on BB Seaton's label Soulbeat?

 It wasn’t BB Seaton’s label! Pete Weston label! BB and Pete Weston, Ken Boothe, Charmers - it was the syndicate. I was the man who used to ride the bike because Pete Weston needed to do wholesale distributing. He'd buy records from everybody and sell them to the shop wholesale. BB Seaton knew that Pete Weston had run away and gone to Canada so he took the label and said it was his label. But he couldn't touch my things. He knew that if you touch my things he was in a serious problem. So he touched nothing of mine on Soulbeat label.

How did you start working with the Mighty Diamonds on the other cut of Jericho?

We grew up together mate. We grew up as youth and youth together. Trench Town. Mighty Diamonds came from down there and so they were around. We liked Tabby as a cool little youth. Me and Bunny were nice. And Judge was a policeman. We were nice. But a lot of songs me and them did together. I could say Enos McLeod & the Mighty Diamonds if I was looking for fame in that way. But I didn't do that - I just put Enos McLeod.

Tell me about how you produced the Thriller album with Augustus Pablo.

Enos McLeod albumsI am the most unfortunate man in the music business. Augustus Pablo only did four tracks on that Thriller album. Fat Girl Jean, Pablo in Red, and I think Pablo No Jester and a next version off of it. It was Bobby Kalphat doing all those works! All that jazz sound that you hear that made the album so big - it was me and Bobby Kalphat did those things and worked. But because he did the thing called Pablo In Red, which was a big hit for me, I just featured him. But the printer man made the mistake because it was supposed to say “featuring Augustus Pablo” but the printer put “Augustus Pablo”. It was “featuring Augustus Pablo” and it was Bobby Kalphat.

So how come the album got ripped off?

Pepe and his brother Hubert Campbell. They robbed my album called Thriller with Augustus Pablo. It is my album. The guys robbed all those things and didn't give me any money. That was a big album. I left the tape with them. I never gave it to them. The only one I gave him was the Jestering. The man there thieved them!

When did you start your Orbit label – which put out your classic tune Tel Aviv?

When the 70s came to an end I was at Joe Gibbs. And this guy Quaker City, came and made me leave Joe Gibbs because we set up Orbit Records. This was my own thing. This was me, him and his wife. This was the agreement. It was three thirds. One third for me, one third for his wife and one third to him. But when I was ready for my share I couldn't get any money. By the time I left Joe Gibbs that's how I stayed. (laughter)

The Orbit label started in the late 70s. And it was criminal again. Why am I so unlucky? a guy called Karl Irving, have you ever heard about Quaker City? A sound system from Birmingham. One of the heavy sounds. He used to shake down Sir Coxsone and all of them. This friend introduced me to him. He came to Jamaica straight to me because people told him that I was an honest person and I am a nice person.

Why am I so unlucky?

Before he came he tested me. He sent some money. Some little monkey money and said he wanted me to do some dubs and send some dubs for him. I said "No problem". I am honest. I am really honest. So Quaker city sent the money and I set up the dubs to give him. He liked what he got and sent more money and got more dubs. He loved what he got there he said "Boy, can we do a wholesale thing? Can you buy records and send records?" I said "That's my game, man. That is what I deal with." Because I had been doing the wholesale thing to Pete Weston. Gregory Isaacs was the man who introduced me to Pete Weston. He said "This is a good man. Have him on your side".

So I started buying records and sending records until he couldn't do it from his house anymore because the thing got so big. And all this time Mamsy would tell me "If the man sends £1,000 take £500 for yourself because the man is not sending you money to give to yourself". I said "No I can't mash up the business like that. I have to just do it". Me and Mamsy were quarrelling all the while because of that because she wanted me to borrow 200 or something like that but I couldn't mash up the business. But she was right. Because now he had to open the shop and he gave Pama a big fight because Pama didn't even get records like how he would get it. Pre-released. Because he came straight from Jamaica and just got them like that. So the man got so big that he could buy a house. His sound got massive.

I showed him how the things should run because he was mean, he was not sending the money to give me a T-shirt. So I said to him "Okay then, let me have a van so that I can use the van and do minivan taking passengers and at the same time use the money to buy the records and sell records." He said he had a van he would send that he never sent that van. So I just stopped.

I waited until one time when he sent the money and I just held at money and said to him "I am not selling nothing until you give me the van. I am going to hold onto this". So that's how Quaker City mashed up Orbit records. And he didn't make the label called Orbit Records because I used to produce the records. All those Bobby Melody and all those things. That's how this thing goes.

Tell me about Gregory and your memories of him.

Enos McLeodGregory was the Cool Ruler man. My brethren that. But still we had our differences because me and Gregory were going on from when he had a little shop. Even some of his children are like my godchildren. That's how close we were. I Will Write Myself A Letter - I produced that. I made Gregory sing it. It wasn't Gregory who should've sung it. It was me that should've sung it but I gave it to Gregory. Ronnie Davis I put on it as well.

Gregory was alright. Gregory was a producer too. A good producer. He wasn't a producer like I am the producer. What they do is they push the muscle as well. They use the muscle. Badness. They use the badness with it. Errol Dunkley would come with the same thing but Errol Dunkley was never so lucky. Gregory was a ginal. Gregory would pretend like he would use the muscle but when he came to face with people like Randy’s, he'd back out and push you. "You go and deal with the thing". So they liked him and would hate you! That is Gregory. (Laughter)

Tell me about your relationship with Pat Kelly. He was someone else who knew his way around the studio pretty well.

Me and Pat Kelly never really did much work as such. But we were good friends. The thing that we did with Pat Kelly was one time this guy, one of those Hippy Boys gave me money, Reggie Lewis or one of them, and he ripped off my money. We going to the studio, we did the work and he never had it. So I mashed him up. I held him down and got my knife. So Bunny Lee and a policeman stood up and the policeman went for his gun as if to shoot me. That is what Bunny Lee told me. I never saw all this because me and the man were fighting. I never really looked what I want was going on. So Bunny Lee was like quietening down the policeman and telling the policeman it was cool.

So Bunny Lee said "Alright man" and gave me some tapes, so I could go and record. He even told Alcapone that he must come and do a song for me as well. He wasn't going to produce me. No producer really wanted to produce me so tough. That's how I did the thing come with me and Pat Kelly. It was Bunny Lee who produced those things really. That's why Bunny Lee could've taken my things and given them to people and me have nothing. Because the same Thriller album the youth - Mafia and Fluxy’s cousin - he had the album. I said "How you get my things?" In Chris Peckings shop he said Bunny Lee gave it to him. And next man named Enzo had it again. Bunny Lee gave it to them. That's Bunny Lee. So I just forgot it..

So why did you leave Jamaica in ’86 and come to London?

That was something different again. I just chilled out now because Quaker City called me to leave Joe Gibbs studio after I had something good going there. I did Money Worries there, I did Hello Carol for Joe Gibbs and those two were hits, and I knew gradually something would have happened. Money In My Pocket. That was me who made that rhythm again. But they went and put Dennis Brown on it because I left. That's why I didn't get big.

I couldn't go back to Joe Gibbs with my tail between my legs

So I left Joe Gibbs and I was on my own because Quaker City made the thing mash up. I couldn't go back to Joe Gibbs with my tail between my legs and beg back for nothing. I had too much pride for that. So I put out a little one thing now and I juggled down the line. I started putting out Jericho and all those things like Lonely Teardrops. Hawkeye started to buy the pre-releases and that's how he took By The Look In Your Eyes and put it down. And he saw how I came to New York and I took it and put it out.

So then I chilled out and I wasn't doing anything. I was just easy. I hoped Gregory Isaacs would carry me upon a show and build me back again which he never does. ’84, ’85, ’86 it was just it was me and she [gestures to his girlfriend] because Mamsy had gone out of my life. It's me and she starting from that time now. So I couldn't let her be hungry so I went to GGs and did Wicked Them A Wonder. I started doing things for GG and I started auditioning artists for GG. GG gave me a weekly salary again. And I produced some artists for him. It was me who produced the album named Culture In Culture.

Even if you look at the picture on Culture In Culture. I was the man who put them like that. The three of them like that. Right up Molynes Road and Waltham Park Road there was a photographer whose name is Brian. That man is the man who took those pictures. I am the one who produced Capture Rasta. Winston Wright and the engineer from Harry J - I can't remember his name.

Sylvan Morris?

Sylvan Morris, man. He can tell you. He can tell anybody. If Winston Wright wasn't dead he could tell them. Look on the album when you see it was produced by Enos McLeod. GG wasn't even there. It was better you say me and Culture produced it. GG didn't produce anything.

Culture in Culture

So is that when you left Jamaica?

It is a bigger story than that! After that, when I was amongst GG and I got my weekly salary I was a racehorse man as well too. So I have connections with my racing people who gave me gambling and those things. So I won up some money and I said "Boy, I will get back in the business but I'll just press the music and put them out". So what really happened was down on Halfway Tree Road, me and she, she was making swimsuits and things, I saw this white guy walking.

I said "Watch me and this guy here now. This guy want some good ganja to smoke”. I just went up to him and said "Yo man, you want some good sensimillia?" He said "How much money?" I said "Give me about five dollars”. Because one stick is for a dollar so two sticks one for him and one for me and I could buy a stout out of the five dollars as well.

So he said "Oh, you are the best man. They used to rob me. I used to have to give them US currency to get all of this". I said "I am not a thief man. I am an honest person. And he had a guitar on his back. So I said "You play music?" He said "Yeah" I said "I am a singer". So me and him went up to my gates, built up a spliff and started playing music and started singing.

He started saying "Oh man, I'm in serious trouble. Some guys robbing me my money because I am here." He said he wanted somebody to marry to. I said "I can get you that". I got a girl for him and he got married to the girl. Then the girl ripped him off and he said "I'd like somebody to do the same thing for my wife". I said "I will do that for your wife. I wouldn't charge. I am not like that". So he phoned her and she flew in. But he was on the run so I had to meet her. I had to sing a song at the airport so she would know that they knew. (Laughter)

So I granted them the favour. I am married to her. She is French. But one day she said "Enos, I have something to tell you." I thought my kids had done her something like robbed her because they can be bad sometimes! She said "Nothing about the kids. About you". I said "Me? What have I done you?" She said "No, no, no, you don't do nothing. It's what you do to my heart. I love you". I said "No, that cannot work. Me and your husband are friends". She said "No, no, no, he is not my husband. You are my husband now. We are married legally.He is having an affair with that girl, so you are my husband".

I said "Blimey! What is this I get into?” But I don't know if we fell in love or what happened but everything was going just well and nice until we started travelling all over the world. We were in America, we were in Belgium, we were in France, we were in England. That was when I put out this album called Baalgad with me and Dennis Brown. A silver album. That album just sold like that! That came out in 1986.

I never settled anywhere yet!

How did you come to record with Dennis?

There was a guy called Lloydie Printer, he was at North Street and Orange Street. Me and him were nice. People they like me. He said "Enos, you are a good singer you know? You need a good producer behind you and I am going to bust you out". So I did a tune for him called Johnny Cool with Sly and the Revolutionaries. But he had Niney the Observer beside him. I don't know what happened but Printer died. And Printer had told Niney before, like he knew he was going to die, "Look, give Enos the music". He told him to give me my music. But I don't know what Niney did with my music! After this day I never heard that tape! He gave me a tape with Dennis Brown having some tracks on it, because Dennis was singing for Lloydie Printer as well.

I had the tapes so I said to Dennis Brown, when Dennis Brown was on tour and came up by Joe Gibbs and I said "D Brown, I have something for you". He said “What?" I said "I have some tapes which Lloydie Printer left and Niney carried the tape and gave it to me. Just give me a thing and take it". If the man gave me $20, if he just bought me a spliff he could take the tape. Dennis Brown went back and told Niney "Enos has the tape." So Niney came for it and I said "You're an idiot Niney. You gave me this. I never thieved this. You gave this to me. And the only way you can get this is you have to bring my music that Lloydie told you to give me". He couldn't bring my tapes and give them to me! What he did with them I don't know! I am not a pushover so he had to just go on and leave me with it.

So what I did was I got Lloyd Parks and some proper big musicians. Willie Lindo and all those men. Robbie Lyn. Winston Wright. The top-notch men. We went to Channel One and just used the voice. Just Dennis Brown's voice. We took off that rhythm track that was on the voice before and built my new original thing around the rhythm. So this became mine now. It was a different set of songs completely. Classic! Dennis Brown on one side. Me on one side. Big album.

So when did you settle permanently in England?

I never settled anywhere yet! Even now I am not settled in England! (Laughter) The world's mine man! Why England? I like England! I like England for many reasons. I don't like England, I love England. England is one country in the world where a black man has got his rights. I love England because of the weather. I can't take the heat. I get too much heat in Jamaica and I can't handle it. I don't like France. I used to live in France. In France there is too much racism. I went to France, Belgium and all of those places. My wife had a place even in Italy. But I didn't go to Italy. She had a place in Belgium and France. She is a wine farmer. She does wine.

England is one country in the world where a black man has got his rights

So how did you come to London?

My wife said "Come, let's go to England with the album.” With that Dennis Brown album. It used to be like every six months I went somewhere different. That's how it used to run. But in the end music is my first love and her business was wine so I had to go to England for the music and she stayed in France.

In 1996 Pressure Sounds released the Genius of Enos compilation. You also released some albums on President Records.

Enos McLeod albums(Laughter) President. That's a criminal! That's a decent, very, very decent criminal. But with President, BB Seaton and said to me "I know a little man you can go to make some money off". I said "Why don't you make the money?" He said "I don't deal with that man anymore". I said "Why? The man is a thief? Is that why you don't want to deal with him?" He said "He's not really a thief but I won't deal with him. So if you want go and check out the man".

So the man said "Yes, Enos, if you are a friend of BB Seaton and then you are a friend.” Too nice to be true. He liked my product and he took five albums off of me. We were supposed to have a seven year contract. Then when I went to him and the seven years was up he said it was for life. "Did you read what you signed?" I said “We had a thing that said seven years". He said "Read it again. You signed for life". But because I didn't have much going on really I just allowed him to go on and sell it because I can easily take my things from him. Any time. So that's how it went with President.

How did you end up working with Pressure Sounds and Century Records?

Santic was with Pressure Sounds. I had an album Chalice Blaze with Jah Woosh. That was between me and Santic. Jah Woosh saw me one day and said (puts on stuttering Jah Woosh voice) "You know there's a man who has some money to give you". I said "Which one?" He said "Some boy Adrian wants to put out your thing. Santic is there amongst them." I said "Give me their phone number".

I phoned up the guy Peter and he was very polite. He said "Come in I really want to see you. I really want to talk to you". The white man does the business different from the black man. He is going to be nice to you. He is going to be polite. He is cutting your throat but he is giving you something! The black man is killing you and he's giving you nothing! (Laughter) I went up and he gave me some money and that thing worked out like that. I am such a cool calm guy. You could make me feel good easily. You can leave the hostility in I. You can lead me with smoke. So I was just cool and I went through with him. So he put out the Genius of Enos. Pressure sounds. And that was that.

Century was Bim Sherman. This was when I gave something to Pressure Sounds. When Bim Sherman was coming to England I gave him some tracks and said "Go on and help yourself". Jah Thomas came to England and I just looked on him and said "Boy, go and help yourself". That's how the thing runs. Prince Hammer came again and I sang a thing for him. Words Sound And Power. I said "Go on and help yourself". I love helping people. So that's how this thing goes.

I love helping people

So tell me about your new double album Reggae Bingy.

(Laughter) Knowing my luck, and how I am unfortunate in the business, they will fight it, yes, and they will always try to do that. But this is the Grammy for next year. Reggae Bingy is the Grammy for next year.

You have Sly Dunbar playing on the album. How far do you in Sly go back? You've mentioned him already in this interview.

Of course. He is the best. I work with the best musicians. In 1976 when I left England and went to Jamaica Sly Dunbar saved my life.


Well again, bad boy business! (Laughter)

Sly Dunbar saved my life

What this album a self-production or did Sly help?

You diss me now! Not that Sly couldn’t have produced it but Sly never produced any of my things! Even when Sly was making money putting out a whole heap of artists and I was so close - before even plenty of those artists - he never really got me out. But I don't carry a grudge for him or feelings for him or anything. He is my brethren. One time he saved my life and that is the greatest thing that you could ever do for me. Bigger than busting me. Because I am still alive. He saved my life. So not recording me or busting me or giving me a break doesn't really matter. What he did is enough. He gave me some money and that was the longest money I ever kept. That money paid me for months.

He came out the other day I went down and he gave me the full thing. He made up back for what's gone. He brought out all of the little drums there. I've got Sly on this album, I've got Flabba Holt, Bo Pee, Obeah, master drummer, I’ve got Bongo Herman on percussion. I have a full horn section, trumpet, saxophone, Tony Green and his boys. I just do the business for the love of it because I just love it. You know I never signed to a company yet. And I've never had a tour yet or any of those things. And yet my first big hit is from 1967. How many years is that? (Laughter) Am I not known?

You're known.

Then how come I never get the things yet?

When I was getting into reggae and buying 45s I bought Jericho. That was the first one of yours I heard. Then I bought By The Look.

There was a lot of music before that though! (Laughter) I'm not just a singer I am a producer. We never really got into that era with Bobby Melody. Tyrone Taylor. I have loads of Tyrone Taylor I'm sitting down on right now. Loads of Gregory Isaacs as a producer. My catalogue is tough. Nobody signed me up. Nobody said they’d get me a show. And trust me, when I come to the stage, that's where my life is. Music is my life. (Laughter)

You've been in the boxing business, the racing business and the music business. Which treated you the most fairly?

You mean which do I get money from? Which is my heart? Music is the best one. Music was the foundation. The very main heartstring. The other ones were just things I was trying. The music was the real thing all the time. I have made money from music. Not like everybody else but I am satisfied. I am not a greedy guy. I am comfortable. My kids have got big now.

That was the main thing, my kids. That's why I hate some of these people until today. Because they knew I had my kids and not a little bit of kids, a lot of kids. And they knew these things and yet they tried to rob me and don't remember my kids. That's my family you're talking about. If you try to rob my kids man, you make me hate you for life. My kids don't even want to deal with music. Because they don't want to mix with people like these. They're doing real estate, doctor, all kinds of things, store business.

If you try to rob my kids man, you make me hate you for life

Thanks for your time. Sadly I have to leave now because I have to go to the Jamaica 50 concert at the O2.

When you're coming to interview Enos McLeod you cannot have some little short time - you know you're dealing with a legend!


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